What Should GameFrog Do No. 2
Well I havent ran too well the past few days and still searching for my 4th final table at FTP. Its taking awhile though hehehe. Good thing is I got my Frozen Throne CD so I am alternating between DOTA and poker. By the way, for the DOTA players out there please make sure to check my first link.
So anyway, I was thinking about this scenario and I would like comments on it. Three players in a hand at a 50/100 ring table. They are:
GameFrog (5,200) first to act
Chip leader (7,700) second to act
Short Stack (900) third to act
GameFrog had A[d] J[d] and raised 400 which were called by both players. Total pot is at 1,200 and the CHIPS ABOVE ARE THE CURRENT STACK AFTER FLOP. (I just put that in BOLD since some comments deducted 400 from the stacks above) The flop comes
4[s] 2[d] 9[d]
Chip leader, who looks like he only has overcards, is also known as a calling station and will probably call a bet (he got his chips from sucking out with pair 2 against KK the bastard). Short stack looks like he hit something and is raring to push all his chips in.
GameFrog feels likes he should lead out with a bet. The question is how much??
What should GameFrog do?
Assume the reads I provided are accurate. I am looking at the action after the flop and how it can net the most chips for the minimum risks.
Will post again on this tom.
So anyway, I was thinking about this scenario and I would like comments on it. Three players in a hand at a 50/100 ring table. They are:
GameFrog (5,200) first to act
Chip leader (7,700) second to act
Short Stack (900) third to act
GameFrog had A[d] J[d] and raised 400 which were called by both players. Total pot is at 1,200 and the CHIPS ABOVE ARE THE CURRENT STACK AFTER FLOP. (I just put that in BOLD since some comments deducted 400 from the stacks above) The flop comes
4[s] 2[d] 9[d]
Chip leader, who looks like he only has overcards, is also known as a calling station and will probably call a bet (he got his chips from sucking out with pair 2 against KK the bastard). Short stack looks like he hit something and is raring to push all his chips in.
GameFrog feels likes he should lead out with a bet. The question is how much??
What should GameFrog do?
Assume the reads I provided are accurate. I am looking at the action after the flop and how it can net the most chips for the minimum risks.
Will post again on this tom.
posted by GameFrog at 5:10 PM
17 Comments:
First off I'm assuming that this is a full table... If your read is right and small stack is going all in then bet 500 which is what the small stack has left. Reason being you are going to call that bet anyway so better be the one to bet it and show strength (to the chip leader). Should get you a free card on the turn (don't see chip leader betting on the turn with an unmade hand especially since side pot is empty) and if diamond falls chip leader might not put you on the flush draw - in that case $$$.
Assuming your reads are correct, I would not put chip leader on AA, KK or AK, otherwise he would have raised your 400. I think he has something like KJ, KQ or QJ.
I can only imagine short stack calling your 400 bet with pocket 9s or A9 suited, since you said you think he hit something. Being the short stack, he would be very selective of the hands he plays and the above, I think, are the most plausible.
I think you're main opponent would be short stack if you dont hit your flush. In that case, I would fire a bet of 600. This would hide any notion to chip leader that you are drawing and that you have made the hand you want. Chip leader would of course call and short stack would move all-in. At this point, with the pot at 3000, I would fire a reraise of 1800 to isolate the race between you and short stack. I think that bet would put chip leader in a really diffult decision, even if he has established an image as a calling station.
If you hit your flush, you get a nice payoff, whether or not chip leader calls. If he doesnt call, and you dont hit, then you just lost 900. If short stack has A9, then you still have outs. If chip leader does call, and you dont hit, the chances that you have him dominated are relatively good, and you make up your loss of not hitting the flush by beating his medium-strength hand. 1500++ is not bad at all. Hehehe.
Let me know what happens, peace!
I think gamefrog should let us know what he's doing in a 50/100 ring? :)
oh... sorry missed out the 'thinking' part haha
Ok first off I placed in bold some important points about the stacks.
Anyway to my comment (hmmm where is everyone else?!? Stop working / studying and think poker people!)
There are 2 things I wanted to emphasize. The first one is a strategy employed by an online player who has been on a tear in the $10/$20 based from Phil Gordon's book. The second one is a relatively small rule that people may miss and could cost them chips in a tournament/cash game.
First - This online guy has a weird play that works. Its high variance but his strategy is deemed unbeatable. He will massively overbet the pot when he has the best hand OR when he is on a premium draw. Anyone statistically holding a medium strength hand must fold. He locks in a lot of dead money allowing him to compensate for pot odds with drawing hands. He picks up a lot of pots and later on will get paid off when people get sick of his aggressive style. In this scenario, GameFrog is trying to emulate this strategy and is on a nut flush draw (For more on this topic go read Phil Gordon's litte green book)
Second - How much to bet. This is a very simple concept but has the potential for mistakes. The bet SHOULD be exactly 450. Remember the short stack only has 900 left!
11finger I think you misread the stacks. Suited, you mentioned you would bet 600 and reraise all-in. Thats where a very very minor mistake can result in bad odds for you.
Betting anything less then 450 will not get full potential of money in the pot from the calling station. However, betting MORE THEN 450 is wrong because when the shortstack raises all-in, if the raise is less then double the inital bet it is not counted as a raise! You cannot RERAISE and isolate against the short stack!
Overall the chip leader should call and fold to an all-in sandwich bet. You lock in dead money and are getting 3 to 1 on your money while having about a 2-1 odds (assuming your overcards count) If you werent able to bet out the chip leader then there will be a third person in the pot drawing against you.
Remember, check the bets in tournaments. A small miscalculation can allow you to see the next card cheaply.
LOL Erick nice one! You beat me to it!!!!
Mark - LOL natawa ako sa post mo
Interesting strategy (does he employ this in rings or tourneys?), how is it working for you so far frog ? Hope you're not testing it on $50/$100 rings heeh...
Personally I'd rather keep the chip leader in play and get a chance to decimate his stack. The risk of losing the main pot is worth the possibility of more than doubling up your stack given that you have a very good hand. BTW, who acted first pre-flop ? I'm guessing shortstack ?
The strategy is done on rings 11finger. The guy just rips through even the pros... Phil broke down the math and it is seen as unbeatable unless someone employs a very aggressive counter strategy. Given that he is only 1 person in a table of 9 people wont do it. However, extreme caution here because it suffers from very high variance. No one blame me if they lose their bankroll in one session!!!!
Oh and mistype on the all-in. Thinking too fast hehehe but I guess everyone agrees that you HAVE to raise. I think suited and Eric nailed it well with a substantial raise that could go well either way if the chip leader calls or not. But I wanted to focus on a very very small thing that not everyone knows. You cannot raise an all-in that is not double your initial bet. Might be a simple thing but I have seen people make that mistake.
Oh I see. Can I clarify what you're saying gamefrog? When I bet 600 and short stack goes all-in for 900, I cannot reraise to 1800 to isolate? The reraise is for the chip leader to make a decision on whether or not to come in the pot. In a nutshell, I am calling the all-in of short stack and raising 1500 more to push the chip leader away. Is this a holdem poker rule or more of an odds calculation thing? I was under the assumption that one could reraise if there was another player still active and with chips in the current hand. Kindly verify. Thanks!
Wow, i wasn't aware of that rule either. Thanks for that gamefrog.
Suited - Yeap the strategy you mentioned is correct. Isolation to minimize risks (1 opponent vs 2) with a good reraise so that your implied odds are still good if you get a call from chip leader.
But the poker rule is that the minimum raise is twice the inital bet. So if someone bets 500 the next raise must be 1000. The next reraise must be 2000. If the bet was 500 and someone goes all-in for 999 then the inital bettor cannot reraise unless someone else raises. Given in this scenario that the chip leader just check, GameFrog being the inital bettor cannot reraise the all-in if the bet was more then half the all-in dude's stack
yup. common but mostly unknown rule. Ive had several arguments over this when i tried to enforce the rules insome of our games.
if the all-in is less than half the initial bet, the initial bettor cannot re-raise unless someone in the hand who has not acted prior to the all-in raises the all-in.
yeah i know the strategy youre talking about from gordons book, ive read it before. Crazy yun. super high variance. Your bankroll MUST be very very big.
With regards to the hand, if there's $1,200 cold hard cash (its not a tourny) in the pot already, i'll maybe take a more cautious approach and see if i hit the diamond of not. I'm probably getting odds to call almost anything unless maybe big stack goes all-in on me.
Cash games are really different from tournaments. There's no "right" way to do anything. your last satatement says check the bets in tournament, but we are talking about a ring game right?
This rule is further muddled by the fact that some people adopt the rule for limit poker where if the all in raise is 50+% more than the previous raise then you are allowed to reraise...
Another rule on raising where I have "discussions" on is the double the last raise/bet rule. People think that if you bet 400, then it's reraised to 800 the next raise should be 1600 when it's actually 1200...
BTW, can someone elaborate on this strategy further ? Maybe a future post frog ?
Ahhh good point 11finger. double the RAISE. Tama.
@Mav - yeah sorry I don't bother to edit and I think and type too fast hehehe. It is a ring game scenario pero pesos yung bet! $50/$100 blinds? Amp!!
On the strategy I'll see bro. But I like posting on things I have tested. I can't really test this strategy because it requires pressure on the opponents. Its probably not going to work on low stakes. I will test it at the ACF though with a 10K buy-in.
gamefrog, it'll only work if you have maybe about 10 buy-ins ready. What if it fails on your first push? pero yeah you can try it.
at the ACF (as far as i remember, havent played there in ages), youll get called in a flash haha! Most of them are on an Ace Draw, and to most, a flush draw is like flopping the nuts. hehe.
you got that right Mav, chasers abound at the ACF, especially the 50-100 regulars who play at the 20-40 tables for kicks. And they really do think that flushes are the nuts! I watched this hand play out:
3 players call initial bet: P240
Flop: JH-9D-10D
raiser: bets 300
mr kim: calls 300
other guy: all-in 850
raiser: calls 550
mr kim: calls 550
Turn: (JH-9D-10D)-JC
raiser: bets 1000
mr kim: calls 1000
River: (JH-9D-10D)-JC-5D
raiser: all-in for 2000
mr kim: calls 2000
other guy: shows Kh-8h
raiser: shows Ad-Kd nut flush
mr kim: shows JD-10H nut full house
that was the last hand of our 20-40 table for the night. it was collapsed because 2 players got eliminated and everyone else transfered to the 50-100 tables. tough luck for the raiser old guy.
gamefrog, thanks for the clarification. will keep that rule in mind for the future.
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